An Insider Look At What Asian American Racism Actually Entails - According to Science and History

In 1869, a photo was taken to commemorate the completion of the First Transcontinental Railroad. It was about 1,900 miles of continuous railroad connecting the existing Eastern US rail network in Iowa with the Pacific coast. What you don't see in that photo are the Chinese immigrant laborers prohibited from the frame, even though they made up 90% of the workforce. They were intentionally excluded despite their accomplishments, sacrifices, life laws, and sufferings. There are no acknowledgments of all the hard work they had done. So it's not surprising that according to the report published by The Center Of The Study Of Hate And Extremism, Asian hate increased by 339% in 2021. That's triple digits. Fast forward to today, it's happening more than ever.

It's not part of our past but also of our present. Oppression and racism are not accurately depicted in the media – spitting, throwing rocks…it's more subtle than that. It happens from a select few; the deciders of the moment, the few that hold the key to power or management that just don't want to see you in the office. No one is going to say that you didn't get the job or that you had a poor performance review because they didn't like your skin color. As I was researching amazing Asian American women, there were many great stories. But there's one that caught my interest and really inspired me because I myself had experienced a fraction of what she went through. It was the story of Susan Ahn Cuddy, a Korean American woman whose parents were the first Korean couple to migrate to the United States. When World War II was ramping up, she wanted to serve the country. She was graduating from San Diego State, physically fit and a math genius. She wanted to enlist in the Navy but was rejected multiple times purely based on race. The US would be at war with the Japanese, and because of her Korean descent, they decided she wasn't American enough. The Navy has quality issues even today.

Finally, she got accepted and went right to work. She was the first Asian American to join the Navy and became the first Gunnery officer. This meant she had to learn how to shoot a 50-caliber machine gun, which was interesting for a 5-foot, 100-pound Asian lady. She was the first to use reports coming from the front line and use that information to analyze the planes that were shot down. She saw a pattern and used that knowledge to inflict fatal blows to the enemies and crafts. Her mathematical ability helped her excel as a code breaker, which during World War II was valuable in intercepting communication from the Nazis. Because of this, she became the chief of code breakers, with 300 code breakers from the ivy league working underneath her. And she had a great sense of humor. She thought it was funny that these ivy league folks were working for her.

These accomplishments had prompted her to apply for the Navy Intelligence but again was rejected. Her supervisors were literally torpedoing her promotions even though she was saving American and Allied lives. It was crazy. At every stage in her career, she was shut down, but she persisted. Researching this, I wanted to look up her awards and accommodations. Do you know those uniforms you see when they split their medals? She had more of those than she could fit in her tiny frame. She had all these awards and accomplishments, and she saved many lives. She earned these jobs, but she got turned down solely because she was an Asian American woman.

Any of us can tip the scale against oppression. Whether talking to a friend you see as unfair, writing comments anonymously at work, offering help to the person being treated unfairly by introducing them to your network or helping them with their resumes. Let’s all be that ally. As Russian Alexander Solzhenitsyn once said, ‘Let the lie come to the world. Let it even be victorious, but not through me.’

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Todd: Today, we have a very special guest. It didn't make sense for two middle-aged white guys to be talking about Asian women being discriminated against at work. So, we have a special guest from the corporate world; She's a project manager originally from the Philippines and immigrated here. She's very educated, very intelligent, and a very accomplished public speaker - Joanne P.

Joanne: Hi, good morning! Thanks for having me.

Joe: Hi! So, when we started talking about this speech, what was it you were working on?

Joanne: I work as a contractor as a project program manager, and I was invited to speak for a D&I event. I also volunteered for an allyship activation. We would reach out to other communities and organize these types of events.

Todd: I understand it was to raise awareness and kind of weed out discrimination. Is that what it's for?

Joanne: That's what that is for, yes.

Joe: It's kind of fortuitous. We have somebody who is going to be presenting on such a big stage about such an important issue, and now we get to sort of talk about it on the podcast. I'm going to start with some shocking statistics. And I must start with those because we know from doing this podcast that the way neurology works is when tragedies get above one person or when they get too big, we actually can't really conceptualize them. So, in your speech, I think you mentioned it was discrimination against Asian Americans is up 300% or something like that?

Joanne: Correct.

Joe: I was looking at New York and wanted to dig into some statistics. We can talk broadly, such as what is in the news and then get narrower from there about what it actually looks like. I saw in New York, specifically, that violence against Asian Americans is up 1,900%, and that was in The New York Times, and it was reported very recently. It's not a small thing; It is explosions. There was a New York subway incident where a Filipino man got slashed with a box cutter and it was a tribute to a hate crime. In San Francisco, there have been a couple of shootings, and here in Dallas, there was a nail salon where someone went in with a gun and shot three women and there was no connection. Meaning that they weren't angry about the service or anything; it was merely a hate crime. So, people who see the news and when Joe Biden made his executive order declaring that it was an issue that needed to be confronted, I think from an outsider like me, the misconception is the percentages must be inflated; it must just be perceptions from that group. So, what is what does discrimination look like on the ground? What does it look like when it's not just news snippets?

Todd: It's similar to parents who immigrate here being kind of tough; it's hard for them, and they know how their career gets stalled out multiple times. The only ones that make the news are the guns and the beatings. But it’s the subtle things, sometimes things you don't even know about. When you start to see your family get discriminated against, I can imagine that's really hard.

Joe: That's something that came up in the narrative. And Joanne, you talked about how Susan started her career immediately getting frozen out of the military, or at least told ‘no.' And as a civilian, I just think of like…you fill out a form and you either get accepted or you don't. Obviously, this happened in World War II while there is a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment, but how did that journey start, and why was that unique?

Joanne: My research about her is that it was because she's a woman and she's of Korean descent. I could only imagine because she looks Japanese, people hated her already. And she wanted to serve but was told she couldn't because she looked like the adversary. So, that would be challenging for her to accept because, for her, she's American by heart. She was born and raised here but was told she couldn't serve because she looked different.

Todd: I was at Barnes and Noble once having coffee up in Seattle, and there was a South Korean woman there. And at the time, there were all these news reports of problems that we were having between South Korea, America, and North Korea. And there was an African-American man in there, probably in his 70s, and this guy had a Vietnam hat. He's obviously an x-veteran. And he started giving this woman a hard time. She was probably in her teens, maybe 20. And, of course, the other people in there started to stand up for her, including me, because she's not even from North Korea; she's from South Korea. But you’d think a man who's African-American and who's a veteran would be sensitive to that.

Joe: Yeah, you'd think so. A couple of the violent incidents I was reading about was an African-American attacker. I’ll link off to The New York Times article so people can read about the specifics of who did what, but it's not just white-natural hate groups. The word group doesn't really encompass. It's generic hatred, jealousy, and poor disposition. That seems to be more of an issue here, and that's the weird mind-blower for me.

Todd: I also wonder about sexism and racism of your own race too. I bet even Susan probably wasn't supported by her friends or family.

Joanne: That was a different time too. Yeah, that's a good point. I'd like to think that her family and friends were not supporting her, and she was probably persuaded against joining the Navy.

Joe: Kind of like being looked at as a social traitor because you're supporting the system that is actively kind of holding your head and holding you back.

Todd: Like, why can't you just get a job and have a husband and have a family? Why do you have to be a war hero?

Joe: When I looked into this, I think I used the phrase that it's almost like reading the plot of the movie Men of Honor except better. Because like, she studied up and she was smarter than the position she was in. 

Todd: It says a lot about her character that she got accepted to this position. And instead of just sitting or arriving, she just kept working hard. I think a lot of it was intelligence, but a lot of it was just hard work and maybe having a chip on her shoulder. Like, I'm going to show everyone what I can do with this opportunity right there. They will not regret having me in the military.

Joe: I think one of the big American myths, and I would actually like Joanne's opinion on this, that ever since Napoleon, we've gone away from nepotism and we have a meritocracy where if you're good enough and you're smart enough, you will at some point be accepted; somebody will hire you and you will be able to work your way into any career you want. As long as you are persistent and you have the skills. But that's not really what we see in discrimination.

Joanne: I can't speak for white males, but from what I've noticed as an Asian-American here in the US is that you have to be better, if not great, compared to your male counterparts. You have to have a Ph.D. while the guy that you're working with is like a high school graduate. We have to speak perfect English, we have to have a BA or higher, and actually be great at the job before learning it. So, that's what my experience is and what I've observed along with friends of similar backgrounds.

Todd: Doesn’t that fall into men always earning more money than women doing the exact same job? Also, I think a lot of the hiring is done by men. So let's say middle-aged white men are doing all the hiring - who do they hire? They hire people that look like themselves.

Joanne: Also, people who talk like them. For somebody who wasn't born and raised here, I wouldn't know the references they will be making. If they talk like them and they share similar jokes even though they just met day one, that person would almost indeed get the job.

Joe: We had an episode about social classism where we figured out through research that if you can emulate to the social class that the hiring manager is from, then you're almost guaranteed the job. They rate you as more intelligent and as more trustworthy. Even if you just wipe away the word racism, just being able to do exactly what you are saying, Joanne, know the jokes, know the references, and know the class, that seems more like the prominent gatekeeper than overt racism. When I hear racism in the news, I think it's like somebody being like, no, you can't because you're Asian.

Todd: That's how I felt too. The one thing I really liked about Joanne’s speech is about it being subtle; racism is not the screaming, spitting, and swearing you see on the news. And the people doing this racism don't think they're racist.

Joe: That may be the biggest key point for me is it doesn't look newsworthy; it's not even really worth sharing with family and friends. I don't have this experience, but it looks to me, from what we've talked about, it's more of you just don't get the job. You're just quietly rejected on the side.

Todd: Have you ever had that experience where you work with somebody, and they don't like you? Whether it's a manager or co-worker, they won't say it. And you just have this constant uncomfortableness for years. I wish you'd just come out and say that they don't like me and why. So you can put the cards on the table and be done with it.

Joanne: In corporate speak, they would say it's not a good fit.

Todd: Which is the same as saying I don't like you.  

Joe: In our Anna Delvey episode on social class, she actually uses those words frequently when she would try to con someone into giving her a job or loan or something. She would say I'm looking for a good social fit or workplace fit. Again, just my assumption looking at the statistics, I think there was a 1,900% increase in violence in New York against Asian Americans making the news. But the bigger one is so many people just saying, I'm sorry, you're not a good social fit. Unless that person has tons of degrees and accomplishments that you can't ignore them.

Todd: Joanne in your career, have you seen people promoted based on popularity and less on skill, hard work, and education?

Joanne: Yes, I have. I've seen them get promoted while you work harder and still been told, like, try again next year. Or if you do this, you'll probably get the promotion, and they just kind of lead you on and keep leading you on until 5-10 years later you realize this is not going anywhere.

Joe: That actually feeds right back into what we were talking about with Susan; she was mega-talented, and she was doing way more than she should have as a Gunnery Officer. I understand it with the Navy. With the Navy, it's a bottleneck; you literally can't move up in the ranks unless you appeal to somebody directly above you in the chain. But with work, I mean like, the option must be there to just find another gatekeeper to appeal to a similar job or office. Is it enough of a problem everywhere to where that is not an option? Like you can't just be, this guy here in my job is racist and he is telling me I can't get promoted yet. So why not just go to another similar job to another similar manager?

Todd: So what you're saying, is this situation is just unique to this one business and one person? And if you went to another company, it wouldn’t exist?

Joanne: At least for me, I'm not just going to go to another company and try the next six months if this does not happen. I think I'm wired to suffer and try again. But until you talk to other people, that’s when you see it is not normal. And so, it took a while for me to realize that I’m not going to get promoted or anywhere near that.

Todd: That's got to be a constant feeling of resentment, though. To me, people say you just got to power above it. But when you literally don't get the same chances, I think it wears on you.

Joe: Right. I think everybody has experienced being hired somewhere, being stuck in a bad position and then just waiting forever as people get promoted around them. But just imagine that every job you have, you are seeing that happen and having that much time wasted throughout your life. Like, if every job you go to, you are strung along for six months to a year, and it is evident that you're not being promoted. That's a lot of time wasted for someone. Joanne, do you think you've wasted time waiting on promotions?

Joanne: I would say five years. At my current job, I've only been here for 10 years, but I've learned tons already compared to the 10 years that I spent in my other company.

Joe: I sent you guys a list, but the fourth one is the toughest one for me to wrap my head around, which is, why is Susan’s struggle relevant to the news today? Because her story about finally beating down the door and becoming like a head codebreaker in a military that didn't want her, that's a giant success story. But that seems so fairytale-ish. To me, it seems like Hollywood, but it also seems like a long time ago. When I first read it, I was like, oh, that is a 1940s story…so, what is the value of looking into this?

Todd: Do you think things have gotten better, Joe?

Joe: I used to think things have gotten better.

Joanne: If I go to Portland, I'm a little bit reluctant to go out and spend my time there because there's all there's news that Asians get mugged there.

Todd: I'll give an example. The VA has a veteran building in downtown Portland and will send emails out to all the employees that there's been an Asian hate crime. So if you want to work remotely, you're welcome to if you're Asian.

Joe: Did they really? That is crazy.

Todd: Yeah, several of my friends that work there. So yeah, be careful if you're Asian coming to work. I mean, that seems like something from the olden days, right?

Joanne: Yes, those kinds of things are still happening. And I think that's why Susan’s story is relevant today. Because even though her story happened 50 years ago, we're still facing the same struggles that she experienced.

Joe: Pew research put out that 8 out of 10 Asian Americans have changed the way they operate because of the threat of violence. So like, they like what you're saying, they either change to remote work, take a different route or several routes to get home, or carry a weapon now or something. But that does feel so last era; it doesn't seem like it should be possible today, like so many things that end up in the news now.

Todd: Yeah, we're not in a big violent city either. It's become that way, but it wasn't always.

Joanne: I mean, here in Hillsborough alone, I was at Home Depot, and somebody screamed at me to go back to your country.

Joe: So there's also sort of a thing in the news where they've talked about how we don't have to report this because Asian Americans have class privilege or that they are successful in America and that is not for me. That comes from the idea that if you are in a class that has succeeded already in this country that you're not as newsworthy…that we have the stereotype that Asians are good at math and they have PhDs, etc. So why do we have to pay attention when they're being discriminated against or pretend that it's not even real?

Joanne: Yes, they call us the model minority, and I think the reason that they're doing that is to put us in a box. We must act and speak a certain way and you should be good.

Joe: Funny you brought up the model minority because 2018 Pew research put out a study about income gaps in minorities and found out that Asian immigrants have the highest poverty rates in New York City specifically. They were like, this model minority thing is bullshit. The first-generation Asian Americans are the poorest people NYC has. So I don't think that we're giving enough visibility possibly to the model. If we're not looking at the whole picture and assuming that they're successful, we don't need to report it in the news when they get attacked.

Todd: I'm reminded of when I was in my early 20s, I worked for a year at this manufacturing plant. There were about eight Vietnamese women, who were all immigrants and spoke very little English, but they worked as a team. Those eight elderly women outworked all 50 of us 20-year-old kids. And they got paid the exact same money or probably a bit less.

Joanne: I think growing up with this model minority status, we don't say anything. We're not accustomed to complaining. It was more of putting your head down and working harder. I don't want to speak for everyone but that's just what I've noticed and how I was taught growing up, and so if we experience racism at work, it was like, well, you should be nicer. You should just accept this as it is and move forward and continue working harder. So that's probably why we are called the model minority because, in our culture, complaining is not acceptable and just staying quiet is more of our Mantra, I guess.

Todd: Joanne told me this offline when we were prepping for the show. She said that if the boss came to her and her friends and said, everyone's going to be working graveyard, the American people would freak out. But she and her friends would just say, okay, I guess I'm working nights now. They don’t love it, but they don’t say anything.

Joe: That cultural disposition of working for the group and making sure the group's end goal is successful serves racism and corporations very nicely. Is it sort of a coincidence that this mentality helps the problem? Or that, at least, doesn't bring it to light as quickly. I think to put my question in a better way because that was more like a slap to Corporate America and not so much a question. But what can we do? Like, I think the main thrust of this is. I've sat through my company's sensitivity training and that is always a joke; they make the racism seem overt. I've never seen anyone in the workplace be that overt. It is what Joanne said – they just don't hire that person, or they keep stringing them along for years without promoting them. And then again, how do you speak out against that? You don't really get a chance to report that. So what do we do?

Todd: I think in Joanne's speech, she talked about not being the one to look the other way. If you see that it's going on, speak up and say something. I've talked to some friends offline about this who have minority spouses/partners and they said that if they see something, send an email to that person and confront them in the nicest way possible. I kind of like that.

Joanne: It is challenging to even figure out if it really is racism, bias, or do they just really think that this person is not qualified to be at a job. So what can you do as our allies? I believe it's just educating yourself on what is happening in the Asian community and also just reaching out to us and asking us what do you need? What do you need help with? I see that you were trying to apply for this role, and you didn't get it. Let me introduce you to my network or I know of a person that is hiring. And so, those are little things that allies can help us with. As I said, it's really challenging to figure out if it's purely based on racism and/or merit-based.

Joe: I think that's perfect advice. That is what I can do as somebody who's conscious of this and also what I can do with somebody who may not be conscious of their bias. If you suspect somebody doesn't know that they are being racist, even if it's not racism, even if it is just subconscious bias, you can always email them quietly and be like, hey, this person has been a hard worker. They have been working for us for a long time and deserve a promotion.

Todd: The NFL has one called the Rooney Rule. This rule requires people of the minority to interview for the head coaching position when it opens; they have to interview a minority applicant. But I find this very condescending because these teams already have someone in mind that they're going to hire who's white. So, it doesn’t make sense to have minorities come when they have no intent on hiring them.

Joe: They're going through the diligence, and you are part of that diligence.

Todd: Yeah, it's stupid.

Joe: I hesitate to bring up anything in politics anymore, but I went digging for why the explosion of hatred and violence got started; why it's up so high recently. During World War II, the obvious answer is we were at war with Japan and there was just a lot of fear. Just the fact that there is a lot of fear and anger toward a group when the public started calling covid the Chinese flu, it rang so much like Japanese internment to me. We're going to link off to as many of these as possible so that this isn't easily debunk-able for our podcast, but almost every source I could find talked about 2020 when people started referring to covid as a Chinese virus. That's when the fire started.

Todd: You reminded me that after September 11th, there was a lot of racism here against people from the Middle East. I remember being in convenience stores, and the owners, you know, a lot of them predominantly Indian or Persian owned, were being yelled at and screamed at…it was horrible. And that's exactly what happened with the covid thing.

Joe: It's not just hard to get my head around; It makes me feel exhausted and like, there's no hope for the human race. This is what being a researcher and a cynic does to you; you look back at every time it's happened in history and be like, oh, this always happens. This isn't new or even solvable. But that quote in the opening is how I got over that feeling. Joanne used in her speech, which is, ‘let the lie come into the world, but not through you.’ I guess the only answer is this is going to happen. We're going to get afraid of anything that is foreign. And we have to be the person that sends an email, or we have to be the allies Joanne was talking about where you open up opportunities for somebody instead of closing them down.

Joanne: I couldn't agree more. I'd like to thank you both for having me here and helping me raise awareness of the hatred against Asian Americans.

Joe: Hey Todd, you want to make her do the outro?

Joanne: I’m Joanne, and I'm not an expert on anything, but I do have an opinion on everything.

Todd: Heyyyy, I love it.