Tashrima Hossain, 100-Hour Workweeks, And The Art of Saying No
Tom is a former managing director at JP Morgan who questions on Quora upon his retirement. Tom talks about how awesome it was working 80-100 hours a week for JP Morgan as the head of structured finance. Toms said a huge amount of that time was spent reading papers, keeping up with the markets, and following politics, art, and history. He says dinners and social events counted towards his 100-hour workweek. Taxi rides and plane tickets to Tokyo, hotel rooms, and mentoring the brightest men and women on earth. For Tom, doing a 100-hour workweek was thrilling.
However, that's not the thrilling 100-hour weeks most newbies at JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, or any major investment banks get to experience, which worked their first-year bankers on average, 98 hours a week. Tashrima Hossain was a star student at Stanford University, and she was earning $100K a year at JP Morgan. All she had to do was stick it out for a year or two, and those six-figure paychecks would jumpstart her life. Tashrima lasted seven months. Her 100-hour workweeks were definitely not filled with bringing up politics, art or attending social events with clients. According to her interview with NPR, she was thrown into a pit of endless number-crunching, Excel spreadsheets, and PowerPoint presentations.
During covid, young bankers moved back in with their parents or friends out of the big city. But seeing their workloads shocked even their loved ones - staying awake for 48 hours straight on the sofa with their laptops while senior bankers enjoyed Tom's thrilling version of the 100-hour workweek. It wasn't what they expected, but soon that all might change thanks to a labor movement happening in America right now. We're shifting away from employees who are too afraid to take time off to employees who are leaving crushing jobs with mandatory overtime. We're shifting away from employees locked in place because their savings accounts echo like an empty drum. We're watching everyone in America learning how to say no all at once. And it's not just minimum wage workers and folks flipping burgers. Even the highly paid and highly educated are learning to say no. And we're happy to say that most corporations are responding. ‘No’ works.
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A famous quote by Warren Buffett pops up in every article about saying no. It goes something like this: The difference between successful people and really successful people is that really successful people say no to almost everything. Buffett’s quote implies we have something more valuable to do with our time than getting dragged off-task saying yes to friends.
But it's important to remember that you don't have to be successful at justifying saying no to someone. You don't have to be busy with your Buffett-sized stock portfolio to turn down a brother-in-law who needs help moving. You don't have to have a creative magnum opus waiting on your laptop in order to tell your boss no to an extra shift. Today, we want to explore the value of saying no, how to say it, and why it feels bad to say it to our loved ones. And to get us started on our no road, we have three myths to bust.
Myth One: Toddlers seem to have an easy time saying no. So why can't we? Why not scream no and stomp our feet when the boss comes looking for a sacrifice to the overtime gods?
Joe: First off, we have a quick shout-out to make. We have a couple of friends and lifelong learners: Kathleen and Adam Martin, who did a bunch of research for this episode. They also put up with me asking open-ended questions on our Discord and when I would absolutely forget to respond when I got swamped in the week. So, thank you so much, Adam and Kathleen. So, let's talk about the nerdiest protest in the world. When I hear Goldman and Sachs's employees protesting their hours, I'm thinking picket signs, a line outside, etc.
Todd: It's not usually in our way to stand up for investment bankers, even the young ones. And these people were very educated and well off.
Joe: Yeah, these are like Yale graduates, and they're making so much money. I can't imagine protesting a job like that - one you've worked your academic career to get to.
Todd: You just hit the nail on the head. These are high achieving kids; These are not just every college student. They should be sought after to make 6-figures annually. They were the top students in the top universities in the world. So, they're going into banking, and this is where you start. They were working 100-hour workweeks, and instead of being the teamsters, these academics made a PowerPoint. They gathered everybody up and did a PowerPoint, and some of the results of this were crazy. Every single one of them is interesting. They showcased that the average person worked 105 hours a week. They also listed that the average sleep per night was 5 hours, and most didn't go to sleep until 3am.
Joe: This protest seems crazy because of the money they're making, but at the start of this episode, we mentioned a guy who was defending this lifestyle. These people may not be taking on a huge labor load, but they are definitely doing the grunt work for the company. This is not socializing and going to the Met and going to a Gala.
Todd: No, these are gifted intellectuals. This is not just brainless work and millions of dollars are at stake for this stuff. So, the stakes are high. In this PowerPoint, they asked how long you can stay doing this. Eight out of ten said they could do it for another month. And then as it goes through three months and then six months, it goes lower and lower. They get down to three out of ten that said they would do this for three months, proving that this was not a sustainable workload. They also said their mental health before they started was good (average 8.9 out of 10) but went down to 2.8 – their mental and physical health went from 9 to 2s in a matter of months due to 100-hour, high-stress work weeks. Even more, 100% of them said this workload affected their friends, relationships, and loved ones.
Joe: That is the key part that I wanted to get to do. They don't have social lives. They don't talk to friends. They don't chase children around a yard. If you ever watch an antidepressant commercial or a yogurt commercial where people are riding bikes in the sunshine and like playing with their kids, this is the opposite. This is locking people into a lifestyle where they are constantly being asked of.
Todd: I wrote a speech years ago about how much of our life we spend at work. The average American worker only works for 40 hours a week, not these crazy hours like most adults work now. But I don't think 40 hours is realistic anymore; jobs are going to squeeze 50-60 hours out of you nowadays.
Joe: The key here is that it's not people who are just in labor who are quitting; people are finally saying no when they have crazy things to lose.
In this episode, we want to make people feel comfortable saying no and negotiating for your time so that you can have that work-life balance. We want you to be able to run after your kids in the yard. We want you to be able to go backpacking. We want to be able to say no without losing our jobs. If you want to listen to an episode about quitting in grand style, we have a quitting episode with Lee Iacocca. For starters, we want to put some perspective for people: You spend 26 years of your life sleeping and 30 of them at work, and about 11 years watching TV or staring at screens. So, it's important that you like or at least can handle the work you are doing for 25-30 years. Stay away from unfulfilling things and advocate for more meaningful work to fill that time in. Too often, we are doing boring things and then being asked to do overtime.
Going back to the bank protest, 100% of them said that 100-work weeks were unrealistic, 92% were shunned and ignored at meetings, half were criticized, and 83% were sworn at and yelled at. These are the most elite businesses in America, investment banks that got bailed out in 2008. With that being said, let’s get into the psychology of saying no. If you've listened to our episodes before, you may notice a trend - if there is a mental illness that can contribute to an issue or something blocking us from better practices, we try to talk about the mental illness first to recognize it. Then we get into practical steps for the rest of us. This is because we want to recognize that there are stumbling blocks to doing the advice that we give, and we always start these sections with a warning that we are not doctors or psychologists. We have not gone to medical school. We are basing these on our links from good sources.
So, there are mental illnesses that contribute to making it difficult to say no. It doesn't mean you can't say no; it just means it's a lot tougher. First up is codependency. Some people have real issues saying no to somebody because they blend other people's approval with their own happiness. If people don't approve of me, I won't be happy. So fun fact about codependency, it started with Alcoholics Anonymous. Codependency in alcoholism is that person that helps you drink, pays for it, pays off your DUI, etc.
In the 1940s to 1970s, Alcoholics Anonymous was looking at how to cure people of alcoholism, and they noticed that a lot of alcoholics would attach themselves to wives or husbands that could not say no. They found out that a lot of these people were codependent. Originally, this was called co-chemically dependent or co-alcoholic. This rebranding went from co-chemically dependent to eventually shortened to codependent because psychology recognized you don't have to support an alcoholic to be considered codependent. You can be codependent with almost anyone about almost anything. The clinical requirement, from what I can read, is that codependency refers to somebody meshed in a relationship where they lose their sense of independence while believing they need to tend to somebody else. When you stop thinking of yourself as an individual unit or person, you start believing that the other person and their happiness is part of your happiness. While this doesn't make it impossible to say no, it sure does make it hard. The more my happiness is tied to the other person’s happiness, the harder it is to say no.
It is much harder for one to say no when it comes from genuine places. I'm going to read a quote from the Guardian, and this is not about codependency; we're well into the territory of you're just human, and it's hard to say no. They say, “Fearing rejection, anger, or just the uncertainty of what other person's responses will be, our people-pleasing is often rooted in childhood. We might have been raised a good girl or boy, praised for being mommy's little helper, or we might not have been given enough attention, and so so we sought it by pleasing others even at the expense of ourselves" I think this summarizes why we fear saying no; it's it is because we want to be thought of as a good friend or a good person and we want people to think well of us.
Myth Two: Not everyone's no commands the same respect. Why is that? Why is my no invitation to debate, whereas Joe's no is an iron wall?
When people say no, it might feel like you almost have to come up with an excuse right off the bat. And if you really don't want to do it, you have multiple excuses. Many times, saying no leads to a lecture that sandpapers you down to a yes anyway. It becomes a debate as opposed to saying no simply just don’t want to do something and moving on. If I call into work, I will have three reasons why I can't be there, and in reality, I shouldn't need a single one. I should just be able to call in and say I'm not going to make it. The Guardian also said it great, “I am a hypnotherapist, and one client told me recently that as a child she felt responsible for her depressed mother's happiness. Now, she said she feels she must say yes to every request for fear of upsetting people.”
In short, we may feel bad saying no, and other people might argue with it. But that argument comes in the form of emotional manipulation. I'll take your no, but I want you to understand I'm going to feel bad, and I'm going to be depressed because you told me no. However, if you say yes to a lot of people too much, you will end up feeling exhausted and used. And that leads to resentment. In terms of career and poor work-life balance, our world isn't built for that anymore. We can't have a personal life alongside 100-hour workweeks. I just don't think the two can mesh, and this is where learning to say no comes into play.
Myth Three: A great no will keep someone on your side, but an awful no will make them resentful. So how do we practice a great no?
For this part, we're going to practice telling each other. This advice is stuff we are taking from the Guardian; they have a good article called Want to improve your life? Just Say No, which is where the above quotes also came from. The first one, they advise that you get into the habit of asking, do I agree to this for me? This can be tricky because it can make people feel like you are doing things only if it benefits you, be mindful when you approach this one to stay away from that type of angle.
You may feel like you are saying yes to something because it is making you more valuable to somebody else, or it's keeping up ties in your social network that you're feeding and watering a relationship. So, it's not that we're encouraging you to start asking if you agree for just yourself. We are encouraging you to examine if it is something that you are saying yes to because it is part of your social network. Are you saying yes because you want to reciprocate and help someone that you have a good relationship with, or are you saying yes because of obligation?
Humans are social animals. I really believe that we have trouble delineating where we start and end because of the network you are in. Just identify when you're doing it for yourself or when you're doing it for somebody else. The real tricky one is going to be with family. It can be hard to say no to family, even if it means protecting your own mental health.
I've started asking my family to text me when they want something. It sounds like you're asking them to go through a secretary but honestly, do this with everybody. Have somebody text or email you when they have a request, and I tell them it's a reminder, but really it helps you by time. It helps you think and it's totally reasonable for you to say, “let me check my schedule.” This can act as your buffer that you can’t get via phone. It gives me time to find the right words to search for the way to say no in a way where I can be honest and explain why I can't.
Another one I really like is connecting with empathy while you say no. Showcase that you've heard them; you understand their request and affirm that they are working hard that they are going through troubles. But you still, in the end, have to decline. Another one I really like is turning a no into a compliment. This almost seems like trickery to me but telling somebody thank you so much for thinking of me, and I appreciate the opportunity, but I cannot support it. That works wonders at leaving a no on a good note.
Joe: According to the Atlantic, people in the 60s and 70s knew how to say no, and this is what we think of as the gold watch during the retirement era. The Atlantic says they negotiated hours and benefits and switched companies in higher numbers than we have in the past 20 years. The idea is that people used to stay in the same job for 20 years, but that never really worked or happened. It wasn't even true. And the idea that we're willing to say no and bail on a job is coming back. Because of this we quit movement, the idea that what you do is your identity is kind of falling away. In fact, the number of Americans who say they plan to work beyond the age of 62 has fallen to its lowest numbers since the Federal Reserve Bank of New York started asking that in 2014. So, not only are people quitting, but people also aren’t planning to come back until retirement, so to speak.
Todd: What I'm taking away from this is getting to the point of no faster.
Joe: Yes, feel good about saying no and don't feel guilty doing it. Do it tactfully to keep friends and saying no to a job may cost you your career, but that career also might not have actually existed in the long term to begin with. So, I'm sure after this PowerPoint protest, these investment banks are changing their tune and providing less stressful work environments, right?
Todd: It's funny that nothing ever changes until bad press happens. So, Goldman Sachs made a big announcement saying no work on Saturdays. Mind you, these people were not supposed to work on Saturdays anyways, especially after already doing 8-100 hours. But what they didn't say was they were going to change expectations. So, of course, you're going to log in at work on Saturday because the work still has to get done. It's just insulting.
Joe: No work on Saturdays means it gets pushed to the other days.
Todd: Now, other big companies like Twitter, Apple, Facebook have intellectually challenging jobs as well. They are offering something a little bit different; a chance to be part of one of these startups or one of these big companies. And if your timing is exactly right, you might win the work lottery, and they offer - crappy stuff like remote work, free food, casual attire, etc. Do you call those real benefits?
Joe: A foosball table, bean bag chairs in the lunchroom, and nerf fights in the office – we all know that takes the place of medical and dental.
Todd: But with 100-hour workweeks, you don’t have time to enjoy that stuff, especially when you work from home and don’t have access to it in the first place.
Joe: Can you imagine making that much money, working 100 hours, and desperate to talk to somebody who's not a spreadsheet, and all your company says is your lunch is free?
Todd: Or they're bragging about the informal atmosphere. What the hell does that mean? What's informal?
Joe: You're wearing a Hawaiian shirt while your boss ignores you in the board meeting?
Todd: So, the bottom line is you can survive the grind and do your time, and maybe (hopefully) switch to another company and become a millionaire.
Final Thoughts
We suffer from a chronic misconception in life, the misconception that we have more time than we really do. We have a someday off in the horizon. And anything we wish we could do today but don’t have the time for, we ship it off to that someday. Living takes energy. Living is chasing children. Living is taking a trip to Europe. It is backpacking and hiking and getting those 30 minutes of meditation each morning. Living won't be easier someday; we have the most energy for living right now in this moment, which means the ability to say no is important to home early.
So, how do we say no respectively? How do we use no to save our lives, which is what your time really is - it's your life. So, here are a few tips that make a good no. A good no is dignified, clear, and respectful. A good no saves both parties time, and if done right, a great no will lead to the other person feeling like they've been heard and understood before they were shot down. Be empathetic before you say no, and if you did your job right, the recipient of your no might be hurt by the word, but they'll be thankful for your honesty. A no from you should knock them off their feet and leave them gasping. Practice being the rumba of no because a great no to a friend should send them in a new direction without robbing them of their momentum.